Today we learned how to “Eat Bitter” as in the Chinese proverb chīkǔ, to endure for the later sweet, with Dr Han Liang. Child psychiatry is near and dear to my heart as a family physician who cares for many struggling youngsters. Thankfully we have Wonderful and caring providers like Han who offer compassionate catch phrases, such as “skills before pillsH and “eat bitter.” We learned about the importance of peer and family supports, and how we might expand those programs to fill in gaps where traditional therapy, social work, and clinical medicine are not the right interventions.
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Transcript:
keevin bybee 0:01
Welcome to the one school podcast. This is keevin Bybee. I’m a family physician exploring how we might make the world a little bit more safe for our children by turning public schools into something like a 24/7 community center. Today, I have the privilege of speaking with Han Leon. He is a child and adolescent psychiatrist. I would love for him to introduce himself and tell us how he found himself on the other side of an internet microphone and why he thinks the idea of a 24/7 school might improve the lives of his patients. Thanks, given.
han liang 0:35
Yeah, hi, my name is Han. I’m a child psychiatrist. I’ve been been doing that work in this field for over 10 years. Also, other little pieces that I sit on my kids school board, so have a little bit of a perspective, from the school side, a little bit of perspective, as a parent, a little bit of perspective as a clinician. So thanks, thanks for inviting me and introducing me to your very intriguing project.
keevin bybee 1:05
Yeah, my pleasure. As a family physician, I just want to say that it’s heartbreaking how hard it is to find a psychiatrist when I need them. You guys are in short supply and high demand, and especially in the pediatric realm. I’ve mentioned it a couple times, but there were a couple cases. One in particular, that really just struck a chord with me where it was a kid with misbehavior issues that were not a result of lack of methylphenidate in his central nervous system. And so I’m just kind of curious, from your perspective, how might we, as a society, help our kiddos with, quote, behavioral issues that really aren’t a medication issue? Yeah,
han liang 1:55
my my favorite, saying that I’ve said so much that I believe that it’s my own, but I know it’s not his skills before pills. So my, my practice is all about skills before pills, and having the same conversations with parents and teens and kids. But, you know, I go back to just our basic psychology, I think of a lot of things in terms of Maslow’s hierarchy, you know, before we can get to those higher levels of actualization and, you know, belonging and love, we have to take care of our basic needs. And that’s, you know, nutrition, sleep, exercise. Those those things that have Socrates said, were important. So, so far back, but yeah, I think I personally see a lot of folks who they, you know, parents and teens and kids that realize that they’re manifesting difficulties with emotional control as a result of difficulties with sleep hygiene or sleep cycles. You know, I’ll have people say, gosh, you know, Doc, if I could figure out how to get some sleep, I don’t think I’d be so you fill in the blank, irritable, grumpy, anxious, you know, hyperactive impulsive. So, so having that idea of consistency in a safe place where they can lay their head down or feel supported by, you know, adults, I think it’s so important.
keevin bybee 3:35
I don’t want to overburden our educators because they’re already functionally social workers and mental health therapists as well as that five minutes a day where they get to do their curriculum with their children. But at the same time, you know, it’s how would you advocate for the system to better resource our schools, so that they, we the educators are more able to handle some of those issues, or at least the environment where kids spend most of their time not at home, ie schools can help meet some of those Maslow’s needs?
han liang 4:19
A really good question. I I’ve been thinking for the last number of years back on kind of traditional societies that utilize a lot more you might call it like a non traditional health workers so what whether it’s like community supports aunties, uncles, grandma’s grandpa’s or other other people with lived experience that I guess like in our western model, it would be folks with lived experience our peer support, you know, family to family, that that sort of like idea of how do we how do we build a safe community system and share resources together for the greater good. And I think there are other cultures that have it just set up more naturally just because the the family systems are closer knit, or there’s more people living in said family system out here, we have to figure it out differently because generally speaking, we don’t have like 1520 people living in a house. Yeah, I’m really curious to explore more into what the future holds for the idea of peer support. And, and so for I mean, in the the youth population that might be, you know, the, the young adult who’s now 18, to 2021 18, to 25, who, who finished high school and really wants to give back in a way to their community and knows how tough it was when they were growing up, still, the young adult who, who is maybe working night shift, but wants to give back somehow, on the one day a week that they don’t, that they aren’t working so that, you know, there could be a shared community resource, that kind of pie in the sky idea.
keevin bybee 6:07
Indeed, indeed, bit of an example of how mixed age cohorts can be leveraged in the community and in the environment. And in the educational realm. The you know, I like how you brought up the fact that traditional human societies and the multitude of ways that they were construed had larger family systems to kind of absorb when any one parent or caregiver was occupied, it was a very intuitive or natural bounce for a child to find another adult to help them out. But here in the United States, while the individual frontier mindset has certainly had some advantages in terms of innovation, and business, it comes at the cost of, you know, I think, human interaction, and therefore, more people end up falling through the cracks, even though society as a whole can have progress. Right. And so, yeah, thinking about how perhaps something like a school can start to fill in those gaps, right?
han liang 7:24
No, I think, I mean, to your initial comment, when we first got online, that the idea of you having a hard time finding a child psychiatrist, when you need one, I think about like, places, you know, African nations, or places in China, where there are even less access to child psychiatrist, but there are places where the happiness quotient can be equal, if not higher, that don’t have child psychiatrist. So how do they do it? Without us? I’m trying to talk myself out of a job I obviously. But yeah, is it a different way to imagine social support? Is it a different way to imagine the idea of crisis support? Or is crisis reimagined as a part of life like it? In Chinese, there’s this, there’s a saying, so cool, which base basically means eat bitter, and it’s not a bad thing. It’s just like, hey, it’s part of life, you eat bitter, because after the bitter, there’s a sweet taste that comes out of your mouth. But I digress. So in terms of how do we extend this idea of educational educational systems and schooling up outside of the non traditional space, it it’s, I wonder if there’s some way we can think about it in parallel, I’m just kind of thinking out loud here in parallel with the idea of like, the non traditional health worker and the non traditional crisis support your your thoughts about a 24/7 system, and put elements could could work in our community construct in our societal construct, so that so the idea of school really does come up quite quickly to mind as far as you know, that that save construct that we have in our system. Otherwise, it would be like where does the community you usually gather? Where are those places that were usually defined as safe places? Yeah, maybe like the YMCA or, you know, the local Athletic Center
keevin bybee 9:44
in a monoculture. You know, you had the town square, you have your places of worship, yeah. We’ve atomized to the point where in a metropolitan society it’s harder to find the one place where People have a shared purpose. That’s why my mind automatically goes to, you know, the educational realm because at least, that’s the one place where most people intersect on a regular basis. And like the non traditional health workers, I’d like to think that we could leverage the, you know, social workers than the ones that aren’t already overworked once again, that’s a profession, I think that we as a society should probably invest a lot more into training more of them so that they can actually feel the need that’s out there. I’m just curious how you and your clinic and your professional experience work with people like the social workers to help out your little ones.
han liang 10:47
So I think the idea of, we’ve got these highly trained folks, licensed professional counselors, therapists, social workers, and you know, the MDS and Doxon, we all have a very distinct role and place. But I also think like those in between times where maybe somebody doesn’t want treatment yet, or doesn’t feel like they need treatment, how do I get them engaged with doing fun things in life? Or how do I get the parents engaged with the community. And that’s where this idea of maybe peer support first really to say, hey, this, this is something I’ve gone through. And this is, one way that I found was useful for me to, to get from A to B, I’ve, you know, had success with working with the social worker or counselor or I’ve had success going and volunteering or doing things that that were fulfilling? How can we kind of talk about what makes sense in your life. So rather than directly providing the treatment, sometimes it’s is that bridging that that gap that that it takes a little bit more finessing to really help folks get to that treatment stage. And so that’s where I like the ideas of our peer support partners, to really help people feel open to those next stages of change.
keevin bybee 12:16
Very much we respond to the narratives of our people closest to us, I definitely feel a lot of resistance for the advice I offered my patients because here I’m just one more person taking their life out of context and telling them how to change things, which is only natural that they’re going to put up a little bit of resistance to it. How do you think we can better scale some of these peer supports or incentivize more people to be peer supporters do have thoughts on that?
han liang 12:49
I think that the local peers in the national peers that have started to become really successful in their work, and the legislators in both Oregon and Washington side are starting to pay attention, starting to see more legislation are already being pushed down the line to kind of recognize peers, and to try to figure out how to help with the standardization of the baseline training and the baseline. I don’t know if it’s called licensing, but to get your title as a peer supporter, not just like somebody walking down the street, but somebody who, who’s taken the extra steps to training and is, is aware of the general ideas of how to not only leverage your, your lived experience, but how to leverage the community. And so I think it’s, it’s starting to happen little by little, I think a lot of it is happening in the drug and alcohol treatment space. And so those peers have been highly successful. And I think that then we’re starting to see a trickle down effect in the mental health space. And also, I think, in the parent and family space. And you can imagine like family members who might be taking care of a child who is more neurodiverse. And having like other family members say, Hey, we’re here together in this. And you know, we’ve shared the experience, we’ve had a great success with working with these folks and this center, or like this school is awesome. A lot of that kind of knowledge that you can’t just google google up or you don’t trust when you google up, but you really need to hear it from another real person.
keevin bybee 14:36
Great, great. Yeah, just a quick Google has something from the Oregon Health Authority. So I’ll definitely link to that. And it’s not something I’m terribly familiar with outside of the substance use realm. I’ll have to look into the mental health and parenting peer support because it’s exactly what we need in my utopian school. In fact, I would recommend We offer parenting classes, and not just offer them but in fact, pay people to do it and offer childcare at the same time, for example, yeah, but we’re really inviting people in and offering them something for their time. Because I know that parents are getting squeezed from just about every direction and asking them to do more can seem like an impossible task in their minds.
han liang 15:25
Oh, totally. And so I think the the peers that, you know, most familiar with it, they’re getting, they’re getting paid, they have contracts. And, and the cool thing is that a lot of the times, we’re able to get more diversity in our, in our workforce, with, with our peers. So whether that’s peers from the bipoc population, peers that have personally gone through gender transition, or all sorts of beautiful diversity, that that, you know, it traditionally is harder to get in our medical fields or our social work fields, I think that it’s really the the great untap place where we can be able to serve people in a way where they feel like there’s more shared experience. I keep going back to that that idea, but I think that’s really at the heart of it, you know, would you go to a whether it was a crisis center or or evening school, if you felt like you were completely different from everybody else, they’re probably a harder sell. But if you knew that, there were folks that either were, you know, have had your experience or are like you and comfortable or safe there, gosh, so much, so much easier to sell, especially when I’m talking to to my patients or parents about things like that.
keevin bybee 16:46
How did you decide on psychiatry? And then additionally, how did you decide to go into fellowship for Child and Adolescent Psychiatry? What drew you to this field?
han liang 16:57
Yeah. So I started my, my med school experience thinking I was going to be a pediatrician. And I really did love pediatrics, I ended up doing some psychiatry, I think, in my third year rotation, and what caught my eye about the rotations or the experiences there were that distinctly when I was done, I still felt like I had energy to go to the gym, to go home. And I don’t know, play video games, or whatever it was that I was going to do that I had that energy, whereas the other rotations, some that I loved, and some that I didn’t love, I’d go home and I felt so drained that I was like, I just want to sleep. And, you know, part of it is maybe that some of these rotations didn’t fit with my circadian rhythm. And, and I may not be a 4am person, but otherwise, I felt energized when I left my psychiatry rotation. So then I explored further rotations and child psychiatry just because of the fact that like, I still had that pediatrics mindset. And once I did those child psychiatry rotations, then it was like, wow, medicine can really be fun. Because chill, children are fun. Teens are fun, even in their, you know, their hardest states, they still are quirky, and they still keep you on your toes. And they’ll tell you, tell you or call your BS out. And sometimes adults just don’t do that. In the same ways that they do. So it’s just been a lucky find. I could have easily gotten gone through and not chanced upon the psychiatry rotations, I would have loved doing pediatrics. But I think I just would be a little bit more tired. And I’m glad that I can. I can be energetic after the day.
keevin bybee 18:50
Yeah, exactly. We want our caregivers to the sustainable unsustainability right now have lots of people in caregiving roles, medicine and nursing is coming to a head at the tail end of this pandemic. So it’s important that we have people recognize where they’re going to be able to do a job that they love, because that’s when the best work gets done.
han liang 19:16
Right. Yeah, yeah, I mean, it’s the same same idea about let’s let’s take the let’s take the ADHD diagnosis that maybe work is alluding to earlier on to me, it may not be like getting the right medicine or how much medicine but it might be finding the right job or the right context so that you you stay on your feet and you love staying on your feet well Awesome. Let’s make sure that we find that for you. You love new projects and you hate wrote projects. Well, awesome. Let’s find something where where your brain can be stimulated and you can keep having new work to do. Or Or maybe you need a combination of all those things and you know You can’t sit still. Let’s make sure that your your neuro diversity and your powers or your superpowers get to play out in such a way that that it’s not about how much methylphenidate, you take, though, you know, if you find it helpful, great, well, let’s get you the right dose. But let’s make sure we do both.
keevin bybee 20:18
Exactly. The number I heard was something like 8% of people are what we would call add. But really, that’s just a reflection of how the human nervous system manifests in the 20th and 21st century, when in fact, we needed those 8% of people on the African savannah has to be constantly surveilling the horizon. And it’s only a quote, pathology, when we expect people to kind of sit down and do assembly line learning or take farm kids to make them industrial workers rather than leverage anyone individual’s nervous system to the social greater good. Right? So I’m just kind of curious how you think about the and I use this term loosely the the mental pathologies or the psychiatric pathologies, as it intersects with the the water we live in the culture that puts the label on there. So what are your thoughts about how we can help people not be burdened?
han liang 21:26
Gotcha. I mean, it is interesting, like the, the idea of, let’s say, schizophrenia, paranoid schizophrenia. So a very a rare disease, a disease where one would say it’s so characteristic that you could probably track its existence throughout time. So when I was when I was at Vanderbilt University, they have a great library. And I was curious, I went through the old books, and I found this old Chinese text on mental illnesses. And I found like the, the Chinese description of like bipolar mania, the Chinese description of schizophrenia, and, you know, essentially before Christ, and so these are not new processes. There may be new stressors and new environmental factors that that change the prevalence, but the disease process at some cells are probably variations in our neurobiology that have existed for a lot longer than we can imagine. So I appreciate the fact that diagnoses help us characterize help us stay true as clinicians in such a way that it’s not like the Wild West and clinical practice, that that the diagnoses do, in some way, help us stick to an evidence based practice such that medicines that that when given to folks are given with with a construct and a thought process behind them. But I don’t like the idea of diagnoses as the fact that they are stigmatizing, they can be pejorative, in the ways that they play out in western medicine. So when I, for example, sometimes the pain or the pleasure of talking to a family about a child who has let’s say, ADHD, or I might present to them the idea of why we think that this is an explaining factor for for what’s going on in their life. But then I might also help them understand that it’s, it’s a double edged sword. So there’s an edge in this, in this instance, there’s a good edge and a bad edge is not like bad on both ends. The fact that that you have this tremendous amount of energy also adds the other side of that is that you have a tremendous amount of creativity. And so you have like this awesome brain that goes faster than all of us, you can run circles around me, you can think faster than me. But that also means that you’re, you might be able to do something great. And so in any way that I can, I, I try to bring out the bright sides of a of a diagnosis. And so I think that’s one of the nice things that that I get. The benefit of being a psychiatrist is a little bit of extra time to not only diagnose and do treatment planning, but also to have that conversation about what else does this mean. And it may not be like a, I guess it is a kind of a therapeutic intervention to say hey, we can help you with with these aspects. But don’t forget that this also means that this is you and all the beautiful parts of you. It’s kind of a dance, we got to use it. We got to do it, you know, insurance companies and everything else. It’s the language we speak. But there’s a way that we can do it so that folks see the light as well.
keevin bybee 24:59
Yeah, very good. critical work, we need a shared language, recognizing that it’s always in development, right? These are buckets that we make to help us. They’re not things that nature is imposing on us. And hopefully, we get better at leveraging it and using it more compassionately, rather than a hammer to force round pegs in the square holes.
han liang 25:21
I like that this idea, it’s not a construct of, of nature. But you know, I recall it also in training, where, you know, we asked like, so. So what, how did folks feel productive if they were dealing with like anxiety, or depression, or bipolar mania in years past? And so there were jobs that were just as important, like maybe shepherds or things where folks didn’t have to interact as with as many people at once. But, gosh, you know, attending to our livestock, what, what, what more important job was there if if livestock was, you know, the means for, for food, warmth, and you know, all of these different pieces of society, that that society but had to depend on before we had microwaves and instant buttons?
keevin bybee 26:15
Yeah, there’s some anecdotal evidence that the people on the schizophrenic spectrum, or the spiritual leaders, right, they were making connections that us regular folk wouldn’t, wouldn’t have made. So again, just being compassionate about how we got a lot of different nervous systems and thinking about how we want each nervous system to thrive, instead of trying to force it into some mold that Western late stage capitalism deems necessary for the Borg.
han liang 26:51
Absolutely, absolutely. And there’s just, there’s so much that, that we don’t know, like you said, keevin. We will, you know, medicine in general, we’ve had a lot of advances. I’m so thankful to be practicing medicine, now versus 100 years ago. I mean, talk about like, you know, maybe waterboarding as a treatment or, you know, other frightening, frightening things.
keevin bybee 27:21
Make sense of PTSD with the four humors. Right.
han liang 27:24
Yeah. But I, I hope that we go in the same trajectory that maybe like 100 years from now, they will say, Wow, those those folks, they they were really, really barbarians. They did surgery, you know?
keevin bybee 27:42
Which way did you see the Star Trek where they went back in time to save the whales. And there was a woman on dialysis and bones, like, what’s wrong? She’s like, I’m in kidney failure. I’m on dialysis, like barbarians. And he gives her a pill and she gets cured instantly. So I’m hoping for the Star Trek future.
han liang 28:02
Yes, yes, absolutely.
keevin bybee 28:04
You know, hopefully, making making making kids a little bit more safe is the first step to get there. And like to think that in terms of your, your experience in the medical field, I’m sure you did your ICU rotations. And it seems so juxtaposition all to spend a million dollars on somebody to spend their last three weeks in the ICU, rather than two days at home. And that same money could have been funneled towards making your local public school just a little bit more robust. And you know, what I would say, we don’t have to choose between them. It’s just interesting that we, as a society, don’t bat an eye at one and somehow claim that we don’t have enough money to do the other.
han liang 28:58
So true. That idea of end of life medicine being so much a part of the GDP. Yeah, there. And I think similarly, there’s societies that are super compassionate with end of life and do a differently and seem to not spend quite as much and then and your bigger pieces, then could reallocate that towards the youth. And the those that hold our future, hold the future of this world. In in their tiny little hands. Yeah. So it’s definitely food for thought.
keevin bybee 29:46
No, no easy solutions, but it’s worth kicking over inside the brain and figuring out like, how we can have conversations and subtly, subtly nudge that needle in a different direction, right.
han liang 29:59
Yeah, yeah. I remember when I was, when I was in the University of Pittsburgh for my residency and fellowship, one of my fellow residents went on to staff, a local crisis center that they had just opened brand new. And it was this this idea was that you you came in for any reason, anytime of the day, you were welcome. You didn’t have to have a diagnosis, you didn’t have to have a reason. If you said you’re in crisis, that that was enough. And I guess I, I don’t know what the financial viability of the system was. But at the same time that that idea was just, like eye opening, it’s like, you go through like school and you, you go through med school, and you think you’re all grown up, and then you’re like, oh, wait, wow, there’s this, this whole other like, experiences, there’s this whole other world out there that hadn’t even thought about, like, you know, honestly, how many crises have have I gone through in my life or where I would have needed to pop into a 24/7 crisis center? I’ve just been really fortunate not to have to have that experience. But but it’s, it’s definitely something we need to think about as a society because other other than something that’s made compassionately and thoughtfully, it’s like emergency rooms and, you know, jails 911, things that really are not we’re not built for, for managing that, you know, experience in our lives.
keevin bybee 31:45
Yeah, we tend to be pennywise and pound foolish. I mean, part of it, I think, is there’s a human bias or, you know, evolutionarily, we needed to respond to crises like those were obvious, the human nervous system didn’t get enough time to evolve an instinct for the multi generational planning. I’m always trying to bring it down to how are we wired as people? How does that manifest itself on the macroscopic level? And therefore, how can we be reflective about that and maybe start to redesign society based on what we are biologically, rather than some arbitrary construct that, like some cloud person said, This is how we are and this is what we have to do. Maybe perhaps we can go? Well, we’ve got the tools of science to know what we are biologically and socially, maybe we should construct our rules based on those instead.
han liang 32:43
Yeah, no, I mean, I was also thinking about what what would, what would it look like to have a 24/7 center and like, biologically, the child psychiatrist and me says, well, when it’s dark, we need to have folks sleeping. So, but then, like, I think the idea of well, what if parents or their caretakers of these kids are not sleeping? Because that’s that’s kind of the their role in society right now is to work a night shift. And it’s, it’s productive work, but you know, biologically would? Would we have kept the kids awake with the parents cycles? Or would we have figured out some way, you know, in a traditional society to have the kids cared for and maintain their sleep wake cycles with the rest of the kids. That that was something that I know that some kids don’t have the luxury of keeping their sleep wake cycles, because of the lack of that, that support. But yeah,
keevin bybee 33:49
we don’t always have answers, but as soon as you start thinking about it, you recognize how had erogenous any group of people’s lifestyles are? And you know, if we care, then hopefully we can start to build in better support so that if so, to in order to keep society from collapsing, if we’re going to have nightshift jobs, what can we do for the kids of those nightshift workers I was one of my first podcast was with a guy who lives in Vegas, and he was thinking about a 24 hour school just because of so many of the casino workers. Right. So I mean, we’re not going to fix Vegas overnight. And so in the meanwhile, what are some alternatives
han liang 34:31
from from the the biologic perspective? It would, it really would argue that we should try to keep the kids on a sleep wake cycle that is most healthy for them, which is sleep when you know when it’s dark, etc. But how does how, how do we do that? While maintaining the idea of you know, the families being connected with their children because if the kids are asleep At night, and the parents are sleeping in the morning, kids are you know, so what? What time do the families get the bond? And that I mean that it’s a difficulty with night shifts period. And I know, you, you and I and all folks in medicine have played with nice shifts at some point in our lives and realize how devastating shifts can be, no matter how young or how old you are, I gotta say I remember distinctly like, I didn’t have an eye mass. So I, I was like putting tube socks over my head to try to go to sleep with with this, you know, in the middle of summer is 80 degrees out and the sunlights bursting through your windows and like, how many socks can I put over my face. But I was like, I didn’t have a kid to take care of at that point,
keevin bybee 35:50
what a beautiful image. It sounds like a great story. Hopefully you don’t have to do that these days.
han liang 35:57
Luckily, luckily, not. But we all have to adapt. And when all you got is a tube sock, you use it as an eye mask,
keevin bybee 36:07
do what we can now and ask for help later and make things slightly less messed up for the next generation, I guess that’s the best we can do.
Unknown Speaker 36:17
Back to the the idea of suck cool, you know, you bitter. Sometimes, I think our current generation or you know, our generation, we got to eat some bitters to, to help the next generation, you know, enjoy some of that sweet,
keevin bybee 36:34
very much. So very much. So like, we’re still operating on the mindset that we had post World War Two, which is we get all of the world’s oil and we can grow exponentially with a frontier mindset. But the world got small real quick, the oil got eaten up real quick. And so we need a drastic change in how we interface with the world at large.
han liang 37:01
The idea of change and change being constant has always been in a concept familiar for us, I know that everybody I talked to seems to feel like that change has, has now become less like like a cycle and more like a tsunami.
keevin bybee 37:23
The again, the the mindset of this is the way things are rather than the meta mindset of let’s be prepared for continually updating world systems. And the thing that’s going to get us out of this is education, like the next generation of kids aren’t going to be given a career, they’re going to be given a set of tools to adapt to all of the problems that are new each and every year. Like I think the concept of a career is largely going to go by the wayside over the next decade or two. And so we need to update both the societal mindset and thus the educational curriculum to reflect that much all things can at some level be boiled down to an educational problem. And I’d like to think that once we can start framing things as an educational problem, then it gets easier to pump resources into the educational infrastructure.
han liang 38:28
Yeah, the idea that we are we’re developing kids to be the the best that they can be based off of the you know, how they’re wired and the idea that we’re really needing a generation of problem solvers rather than robots.
keevin bybee 38:50
Because we are handing them a lot of problems. Yeah, and maybe some robots
han liang 38:58
that that was that sounded ominous.
keevin bybee 39:02
Well, it’s a it’s a beautiful Saturday and I don’t want to eat up too much of your time. Did you have any closing thoughts or anything in particular you would like to share or point listeners to for their edification?
han liang 39:17
I guess I just like to thank you keevin for broadening my, my mindset to just kind of being open to thinking about what what might how might we do things? Cuz I think all of us, especially in the last two years, even the those of us that work hard to edit, that growth mindset has become more limited lately, and it’s been more easy to say why things can’t work rather than what what could we do to to change? So I appreciate having this conversation which, in some ways I feel like was was more more therapeutic for me, then maybe informational for you?
keevin bybee 40:04
Well, that’s my pleasure. If I can be a be an ear or therapeutic person to somebody who takes a lot on from other people, I will consider that an honor. Hon, I really appreciate you and the work you’re doing as well. And hopefully, we can continue this conversation offline with some of the better developments of bitter things like brute hops. So
han liang 40:31
I like that. But you know, the the sounds like if there’s one thought that I’d leave with you, the let’s explore our peer support network more fully, in terms of your next steps and your journey with the project, because there could be a untapped resource, highly trainable talent pool out there. And generally, you know, in terms of dollars and cents, a talent pool that can be quite cost effective, just because there isn’t that limitation of like 16 years of training to get to be a highly effective individual in their field. If we if it takes 16 years to train, everybody. We’re just never going to have enough people to help help this, this problem out because that’s a lag of 16 years before you can, you can get somebody online to do that, through this hard work.
keevin bybee 41:28
Well, most of those people have 16 years of lived experience that we absolutely should be leveraging. So that’s my next direction. Thank you for the insight and enjoy the evening with your family.
han liang 41:39
Cool you take care
Transcribed by https://otter.ai