Today I had a very resonant conversation with Taylor Jones, of Stumptown Counseling. She is a former school mental health therapist, now in private practice. She’s incredibly passionate about getting kids the care they need, and has first hand experience in how important it can be to provide that care where they spend most of their time, SCHOOLS! She provides recommendations on medicaid reimbursement. She’s very much on the same page about preventative mental health access, as well as expanding mental health to after school programs!
She worked at Adrendweld Elementary
Transcript:
keevin bybee 0:00
Welcome to the one school project. This is keevin Bybee. I’m a family physician exploring how we might turn schools into 20 473 165, safe spaces for our children. Today, I’m joined by Taylor Jones. She is a counselor and former school counselor. And I’m excited to hear how her experiences might enlighten this project. And thanks for joining me today.
Taylor Jones 0:25
Yeah, no problem. Glad to be here. Well,
keevin bybee 0:28
would you mind kind of giving us a little bit of background on yourself, what your career trajectory has been like, and how you found yourself on the other side of an internet microphone with me today?
Taylor Jones 0:41
Yeah. So I am a licensed professional counselor, and I work with school aged individuals. So I, I’ve been, I’ve worked with children for like, a long time, I think 12 years I’ve been doing this. And I started off working in a treatment facility with kids that really, I mean, the what they used to say is kids have failed out of the system, they were kids that were really significantly emotional, just emotionally or behaviorally disturbed, like this very, very significant issues. And they didn’t function well in the main system. And so they were they were in the detriment program. And these are the kids that were getting around the clock kit, right, they were getting care 35 hours a week from us directly, and it was really fantastic. And in turn, they were getting a lot better. Because of that, they were getting so much support. So I then got my master’s degree and started working, doing out more like outpatient counseling. And in that time, they then created a program where I was at lifeworks, at the time to the local nonprofit agency, and they began going into the school, actually as kind of contracted calculator. So we were not paid by the school districts, we were working in the school as just Yeah, like contacted counselors. And I then did that at my next job as well. So then I went, and then I worked at Western psychological. And I did that there partly as well, and then also had a practice at an office setting. So I’ve had a lot of experience, I guess, like in directly in the school system. But with kids that really benefit from that,
keevin bybee 2:23
in my experience as a family doctor, one of the challenges has been making sure that kids get enough services. So just pretending that we had enough money to clone you. How many of you would you really like in order to do the job, you think, a kid in your average school or perhaps slightly higher needs school might need.
Taylor Jones 2:49
So I worked in a school that was a title title one school, which means that that is a school that has a lot of need. Kids, most of the kids qualify for free reduced lunch. And it’s a school that gets a little bit of extra resources, because they have so many kids that are that are at the poverty line. So at that school, it started with just me. And keep in mind there really is a difference between school counseling and mental health counseling. So I think that’s an important distinction to make as well, which we can go into in a little bit. But so there was one of me, a mental health counselors to start and I was full within like two weeks completely full. And I’m talking like 45 minute sessions back to back from the start of the school day, until 4pm, because a lot of the kids lived around there and couldn’t work could walk back to school, or a parent could bring them. So that didn’t work. Because definitely more of me needed and there’s about 450 kids in the school. So they big school, elementary school. And so then we brought on another person and I think we were there I think we were still had a waitlist. And so basically someone was there every single day of the week and there were still a waitlist. I don’t know, a lot. I think there needs to be a lot I would say probably probably at a large school like that. But the title one school, you would need to you could you could make it work with someone there every day or even to people with a probably. But again, if this becomes a thing, they will have a formula for this. Someone somewhere will develop a formula for how what percentage of children right? Like need mental health services on the regular and then how many how per, per school what that would look like.
keevin bybee 4:30
Yeah, exactly. And I’m just trying to back of the napkin, see if we can start that formula so that we can start to justify because, you know, from an outsider like Oh, great, we’ve got a school counselor box checked, move on to the next thing, which is really not taking into account things like how many kids there are versus how many kids need some services and then how many kids need ongoing or how frequent and so what are the variables that might contribute to that and give us You know, a number of counselors or mental health counselors need it right. And you mentioned the distinction between, you know, school counseling and mental health counseling. And then I even heard that, you know, behavior lists are another subset beyond that, would you be able to kind of enlighten us because, you know, the uninitiated, like me might sound like those are all the same thing.
Taylor Jones 5:21
Right? So, school counselors definitely have training in mental health, right. But they are directly paid from the school system. And the focus really is on kids doing well in the classroom, right. So like, when people make an IEP, or like, it, that’s called an individual education plan. So these are kids that are, have have a lot of need, or they’re really struggling in school, in some area, they’ve got some diagnosis or some issue that’s like creating more issues, right, or creating, excusing an inability for them to like function really successfully in the school setting. The school comes in, and they, they really, the real focus is on education. Right? So I mean, school counselors are bombarded all day long, and oh, my God, I can’t even how, how hard that they work. It’s incredible. But all day long, it’s like they’re doing groups in the classroom. They’re involved in these IEP meetings. So they’re trying to really help kids, parents, the school staff, everyone, like focus on how to get these kids, you know, these needs met, there’s, you know, then there’s Education team, which is, which is another part of that, and then the behavior support team, which is like, helping with the behavior part of it, but again, all of its centered on school and school performance. And so that’s like, a, that’s a huge fundamental difference. So then, so my, my focus is on the mental health aspect. And yeah, there’s goals in there too. Like, our educational goals. Sure, like, you know, child will be a specific kid with ADHD, right? You’re like, Oh, well, kid will be able to, you know, complete 50% of tasks, 50% of the assignments, maybe it could be a goal, maybe it could be a goal for them, something is different for each kid, but but predominantly, my my goals are that this child’s mental health and mental well being, or are being met and that they’re doing well. So it’s just their different focuses, right. And so and, and on top of that, school counselors are so bombarded that it’s just really not, it’s not a fair expectation to expect that they will have time to do even a small portion of the counseling, which is, which is why mental health counselors is so vital to be in the school system. I mean, it’s just it’s so important. And you know, it increases access, parents are not able to get their kids to counseling, especially when you’re talking about parents who are struggling financially or kids, kids that have, you know, Medicaid, Oregon Health Plan, it’s really, it’s really hard for these families to get their kids care, to drive them to another facility, pick them up in the middle of the day, get them to another facility, another agency, another counselor for an hour, then transport them all the way back, not only using their money, their gas money or bus passes, or getting the resources to get there. But then you’re asking them to take time out of their day to do all of that. And I get that parents are supposed to do that. But it’s also like when we can eliminate some of those barriers and challenges, why not make it easier, make it more accessible for these kids. And that’s what I really saw when I was in the schools is it was such, I mean, there were these kids that there is there is no way that these kids are going to get mental health services, absolutely no way that some of them were, and they were able to come into the office. And it was fantastic. And they were actually a lot of them are quite excited.
keevin bybee 8:32
Very much. And I see the same thing. You know, even as a family doctor, where it’s not that it’s easy to get in with a doctor. But the in general, the waiting lists are shorter than a lot of the mental health specialists that I see. And you know, just from a cold hearted capitalist perspective, taking people out of work so that they’re earning less and producing less, like you think just from a selfish capitalists standpoint, we’d want people working instead of taking time off to take take care of their kids. I only say that partially cynically, but you know
Taylor Jones 9:02
I know. But I know you mean it’s true. And I actually think that ties into one of the challenges that I want to discuss today. Also, I think there’s a real stigma, like on this end of it, like counselors and friends of mine who are in the field, there’s this there’s this real stigma about, you know, we’ve always been kind of expected in this field to do a lot of pro bono work. You don’t really expect that in a lot of expect out of people in a lot of other professions, you know, and so with so that’s that so there’s this kind of there really is this like financial issue around around this piece. But what I’ve experienced is it’s really not an issue and I’ll tell you why. With the Affordable Care Act, and Obamacare, kids have health care, have health insurance, like if if your kids are dependent, you get them health insurance, and there it is. It is open the world man. Like I can start something you really have to worry about, you know, so so 10 years ago, for goodness, I was, I was working with families and they wouldn’t have health insurance and you’re just like, Okay, what am I going to turn this kid away? No, absolutely not. And so now they have resources, there’s numbers you can call, you can help the families now get connected to, to insurance and care, and you’re, you’re being reimbursed. So it’s really not, it’s not an issue now. And especially in the school systems, like, I bought the schools really, in my experience, the schools really helped facilitate a lot of that, making sure the kids had health insurance and making sure that was done, there was even a social worker, and people from the state that we come to the school, just check on certain families. And it was it was a great title one school, it was awesome. I mean, and I noticed an exception, not all schools are like that, but I’ll give a shout out to our unwalled Elementary, it was pretty was pretty fantastic. The principal, the school counselors, the teachers, everyone there really loved the kids. And it was it wasn’t a wonderful experience.
keevin bybee 10:56
Well, how that, you know, part of my goal is to see if what are learnings that we can help replicate and show how they might possibly generalize? In terms of getting more counselors to except state insurance? Are there barriers, perceived barriers, you know, will be a reason why we just don’t have enough counselors taking state insurance?
Taylor Jones 11:21
Well, there’s that. So it’s really, it can be a pain in the butt, that is actually a thing, it can really be a pain. In the initial process of getting a kiddo on the insurance or not on the insurance gives me getting them an authorization approved to see them. It’s not like with other insurances, right? Where you can just kind of like, see them and then build their insurance if you’re on their insurance panel, you know what I mean? So it’s, it can be a little bit different. And it’s also really difficult to navigate. I mean, there’s 1000 I mean, not really, that’s very exaggerated, but it feels like I’ll say there is 1000 different billing portals that you have to use or billing, you know, there’s, It’s so confusing and so difficult to navigate. I mean, there was at one point, you know, family care, and then they went to house and then there’s I think it’s Trillium there now they’re in doing that like kind of mental health side of things. And there’s you know, those characters care Oregon and then there’s open car and I mean, and then like, there’s the PPO is right or not, the PPO is the CCS, I think they’re called and then I mean, there’s so much navigate, you know, you’re in the medical field. It’s, it’s ridiculous. insanity. So, so having counselor navigate, all of that is really challenging. However, once you figure that out, and you get through the paperwork, and you get the kiddo authorized, it’s really straightforward and easy. I get my checks every week. I mean, it happens and they pay very well. That’s the other thing is they actually pay well, they paid better than a lot of other insurances. Now, I’m speaking as someone who works in the Portland area, right? So I know this isn’t the same across the board, or even state, even across the state. But in Portland, it’s a no brainer. It’s an absolute no brainer to take to take Medicaid.
keevin bybee 13:10
Oh, that’s great. And for the listeners, one more plug for single payer, again, as a medical provider, it’s a nightmare, just getting paneled with insurances. And you know, why would we put more barriers in place when it’s only going to end up shooting ourselves in the foot over the long term?
Taylor Jones 13:30
Well, it really does. And it’s a very, very in place, so they don’t have to pay out I mean, let’s be honest, you know, that, I mean, that’s what it is, like, I have so many kids where I got the authorization I started seeing them and then they like rejected it for one reason or another why I’m busy, I’m busy, I’m really really busy. And you’re busy, you know that and so like going back to like battle a claim with like, you know, Potter 50 bytes, like, it’s just not worth your time at the end of it. So you end up eating some of that money. It is what it is. And I don’t like that it is what it is, and that we have to accept that. But but that’s part of the that’s part of the game, I guess, I guess you would say,
keevin bybee 14:03
right, but I think the more people talk about it, and the more the the minds in the ears of people who might vote or make noise, then that’s how things get changed. And, you know, you also mentioned this expectation of pro bono, you know, as a physician, it’s the same thing. Like there’s a reason there’s no physicians union in the United States, because what would we do go on strike, like just the political and in my digital emotional ramifications of that are unacceptable. And so the system knows that it’s going to be able to take advantage of us there is a sufficient pipeline of unexpecting, naive, hopeful people coming in that they, there’s just enough of us to chew up and spit out. And so instead of making sure that we’re robustly resourced, so that we can continue to do this in a sustainable basis. They make us do 10 to 20% You know, plus or minus pro bono work. Yeah. And or the paperwork like you mentioned, I don’t know that we’ve got much of a point there other than resonating with the fact that, you know, people like us end up taking it on pro bono. And then there’s also this other voice or narrative. I heard out there that we wouldn’t want to increase salaries, because then we’d only be getting people in it for the money, which I somehow never understood.
Taylor Jones 15:24
No. Really reimbursing. reimbursing people. So they actually want to do what they do? Imagine this and they can, and they can work and provide for their families. I know. Right? That’s a such as the football out there thought. I know. You hear that. Hear that with teachers too. And actually, yeah, I could go on. But yes, I agree. It’s so ridiculous. Ridiculous.
keevin bybee 15:50
What would be some other challenges other than the obvious kind of financial thing? And two, making schools open all the time and making sure that there’s, you know, at least on some sense, access or triage capacity? 24? Seven?
Taylor Jones 16:06
Yeah, I think space is one. The school that I was at, had was like a pretty new school, it was beautiful. And it had extra rooms available. I mean, that’s kind of that’s one of the things I see. Sometimes it’s like, it’s space being a real a real issue. But I think I think women needs their staff really do move around. I mean, I just made a checklist. So that was space was one of them. But again, I think a lot of these areas are things we can easily get around. People are willing to move around, people are willing to kind of figure stuff out. But again, I think if this is a part of the expectation that mental health counselors are at the school, they would just make it work. I mean, this would just be what it was, they would get a room and office, that would be it. I think another one is, what would we always do? Right? Isn’t it that there’s some sort of like regulation, and then a board? And then like, who pays for the regulation? Or the regulating? And in the, if this were to become a thing, which I hope it does, how would we navigate that? Because it sets up so many resources and so much money? Just having it regulated? That’s what I see.
keevin bybee 17:10
Yeah, I mean, we see that in. I mean, that’s the biggest, one of the biggest costs in the healthcare industry is just the overhead from admin and insurance. Yeah, I know, I feel you and I don’t know, I don’t have a great answer. But I’d like to think that with the advent of better communication tools, and streamlined, you know, I guess the whole point of integration is that so much of the overhead can be shared, rather than you’ve got the school admin and the mental health admin and the social work admin, it’s just the admin with, you know, one large umbrella and I think so much of that then removes the unnecessary redundancy.
Taylor Jones 17:54
Yeah, agreed. So there are several schools in the area that are doing this model where they have counselors, mental health counselors, at the school, they’re billing the kids insurance, they’re not paid by the school, they’re just basically taking up space, and they’re helping out or helping their school kind of provide more mental health services to the kids, it’s fantastic. One of the concerns I have and I was one of these providers, it was, a lot of times they use agencies who only take who are only able to Bill Oregon Health Plan. And the reason that they’re only able to build Oregon Health Plan is because they’re not licensed providers yet. And so they don’t have as much experience until they put them to like places like lifeworks or, you know, Albertine occur. Morrison center, like these programs, there were nonprofit organizations and their, their help, they’re in there, they want to help. But they might not have as much experience and you’re putting them in school situations where you need a lot of you need experience working with kids and knowing how to navigate what’s going on. And so that can be one of the big challenges. And I think, again, it goes back to the stereotype, right? That like, oh, Oregon Health Plan doesn’t pay well, they’re difficult to work with. So we’ll just stick an agency in there, or this agency, who works with them and knows how to deal with it can can do that. And I think if it was if it was easier if there were more trainings and just more awareness in general, with counselors about how to navigate these systems with Oregon Health Planning and working, working with Medicaid, it would be a lot, a lot easier to get clinicians that are licensed into the school.
keevin bybee 19:37
Great. I like that idea of how to, you know trainings on getting panels. That’s attractional item Actually,
Taylor Jones 19:44
yes, well, and how to get panels but also also how to navigate there. Like what does it all mean? Like what do all these terms mean? how to navigate which, like, wait, which which number? am I calling for this? Who am I I mean it Just It’s so confusing. I mean, I can tell you like, there, there are three different. Yeah, billing programs I have to use right now, for three different clients who all have Medicaid. It’s it’s just, it takes hours to learn how to navigate each one of those.
keevin bybee 20:15
Yeah, the overhead with learning new systems is an incredible barrier. I mean, even, you know, in the medical system with the electronic medical records, it’s one of those things where, if you know how to use it, it can be really powerful and efficient, but the learning curve is quite steep. And so instead of learning the easier way to do things, we do the slow thing, because we just don’t have the time to invest in learning. And so I think, continuing education and dedicated time for that, well,
Taylor Jones 20:46
it also be quite helpful if they could stream everything into one place. Not every single, like clients have a very different way of billing and a very different way and a different number to call for, like customer service and a different authorization process. And like, it’s just, it’s, it’s too much.
keevin bybee 21:03
Yeah, the unnecessary, deliberate amount of friction is frustrating.
Taylor Jones 21:10
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I mean, those are honestly the biggest barriers that I see. And then the stigma race that like, it’s just, oh, it’s awful. Like, you know, counselors don’t want to work with Medicaid. And I’m like, I’m loving it. I mean, again, they compensate Well, they also allow services like case management and consultation and skills training and coordination. So there’s so they allow for more of that to be billed and free to participate in and in a school setting. that’s essential, right? I mean, talking to teachers coordinating, you know, managing what’s going on, like making suggestions if you I mean, like that’s, that’s very essential.
keevin bybee 21:48
You’re because you’re currently working private practice, correct? Yeah, I am. Yeah. And so do you still have the opportunity to interface with the kids in schools or anything like that?
Taylor Jones 21:58
Oh, yeah. Yes, all the time, but I don’t get paid for him. And you know, that’s the thing right? is is you don’t get compensated as that whole. Oh, you did? Well, you know, your counselor, you should just do it. Yeah, exactly.
keevin bybee 22:10
You’re only allowed to bill for the face to face time, not the the ancillary time, which in some sense ends up being as important as the face to face time right? And more
Taylor Jones 22:21
so when you’re Yeah, when you’re dealing with, like young kids. Little kindergarteners were younger. Yeah, absolutely. All of us even I would, I would say oftentimes, you know, more essential the follow through at home, they’re not gonna be able to relay all those messages or let people know what they Oh, my cousin said this is you know, she’s recommending that I have a social skills group you know, that’s that’s just not not happening.
keevin bybee 22:44
And so with kiddo counseling, so much of it, I would think is, you know, what’s the home environment like and so how are we able to support the family environment right? Because if the parents are already overburdened and it’s already a challenge for them to get their own mental health or counseling, I’m just curious if you have thoughts on that like in order to take care of the kids we really need to take care of what’s going on at home
Taylor Jones 23:12
right one idea that I was just kind of bouncing around is what if you were automatically assigned a mental health counselor you know, you know how people that people are automatically assigned a primary care physician that you check in with once a year or more if you need to, but like you know, you have you have yearly checkup? What if What if, God forbid what a wild idea they did this for mental health people check in regularly with mental health providers it could be virtual, it could be at school it could be you know, I’m saying like, I feel like that would be really helpful in all this to get a pulse on what’s going on.
keevin bybee 23:49
Yeah, you’re singing my song I often use a metaphor when speaking with my own patients when trying to convince they’re hesitant to maybe seek out professional help is nobody was given a handbook for life, you know, and we all need help at some point and our minds are among the most complex things that exist in the universe. And so yeah, I think preventative preassigned proactive mental health is just critical to personal community and family health.
Taylor Jones 24:24
I think having also mental health integrated into other other after school systems would be really helpful as well like Boys and Girls Clubs having and I and again I say this without knowing for sure but my dad helped run a Boys and Girls Club in Southern Oregon and you know, their big idea was they wanted to know have they had they built like in their facility like a like a medical examination room. And like for dental and they built like, they had extra room for like mental health. So they have this whole all this, all this stuff built and then I think what would happen so not sure the outcome there but I Like, wow, that would be amazing, right? So kids after school, could, it just becomes a part of the everyday like, Oh, you, you always have this, you always have someone there to talk to, like, there’s literally a person that you can go to if you need help. And then the systems are also integrated, right? Like, then you’ve got the person, the mental health person at the school that can talk to the talk to the Boys and Girls Club and ask if they notice what’s going on, you know, again, you have to have the leases signed and consent to do all of these things. But, you know, if parents are allowing it, goodness, having as much communication as possible to really get inside what’s going on, is this kiddo, super helpful.
keevin bybee 25:38
The integrated nature helps remove some of the stigma to because the counselors already at the school, you know, you’re not that you’re not that kid being taken out of class, don’t see their counselor, like, it’s like, oh, it’s your turn to go. And everyone’s like, Okay, he’s going, and then I’m going to go tomorrow, or I’m going later this afternoon. And it’s just what people do, right?
Taylor Jones 25:59
I had several kids that I worked with who, you know, don’t miss recess, they go out on a playground, you can see them how they interacted with the kids, and or you, you know, there’s a child, but hopefully, because an eating disorder, and you’re able to have lunch with them, and really helped them, like overcome some of that stuff, you know, so it’s just, it’s just, it was incredible. And I really, I really miss it quite a bit, if I’m honest. But you know,
keevin bybee 26:22
we’ve covered a lot of the things that I was hoping to touch on, you really enlightened me, and I’m definitely learning a ton is there are there any other points that you would like to plug any other resources, you think it would be valuable for me, or anybody listening to this to look into,
Taylor Jones 26:41
I think I’ve said it all. I mean, I’m just really, you can see really passionate about this, and I really, I just want, I just want kids to get the care that they need. God, there’s so many kids that just don’t because it’s not, it’s just, there’s too many barriers for their family. And it’s just, I just don’t want that to be the case, I want kids to just be able to get care. And it’s, it’s so difficult. I mean, there’s, it’s just so difficult from anything from having, you know, there was absolutely terrible transportation that Oregon Health Plan was providing that was not reliable, they were often late, I think they’ve worked on that in the last year. But it’s fundamentals. I mean, if you if you can’t have, if you don’t have transportation, or you don’t have the money to get to the appointment, or you don’t have, you know, you’re working, you don’t have all these things, it’s not going to happen. And so setting it up in a system where the kids are already there, let’s do this, one of the challenges also is, so if you’re working with the children, and when you work with kids, it really is very important to also have contact with the parents, it really is very important to do family counseling, especially with the younger kids. And that that can be the challenge when it is in a school setting. Because the parents then aren’t always able to come in and do all of that. So that is one of the challenges. But again, if this was offered in not just not just the schools, but the after school care, and there were more there was just more access in general, I mean, oh, hey, can I chat with you, while you’re picking up your kiddo from the Boys and Girls Club and let’s come in and have a session here or, oh, it’s the summer there isn’t school but your kids, your kiddos involved in the, the care program that is subsidized by the is sensitize that a district, like let’s do that, let’s let’s meet here on this day when you pick up or when you drop off. So I mean, just the more access is, I can’t even I know I’m rambling but it’s just, it’s just so so important. And I see it all the time, or just kids just fall through the cracks. They don’t have it.
keevin bybee 28:40
Same here and that’s why I you know, can’t sit on my hands any longer. There’s just life and then there’s the bins that we chunk it into for various useful activities. But like you mentioned transportation is going to affect education which is going to affect mental health and these are all things that feed into each other recursively and you kind of need to take care of all of them at the same time to get traction on any of them. That’s why addressing any one thing as a siloed project will usually just end up not showing much improvement because the date that’s leaking you stick your fingers in 10 of them and the night still leaking you’re like well plugging holes isn’t working like Well yeah, when you only plug at 10% of them of course it’s not going to work we got to plug them all at the same time.
Unknown Speaker 29:32
So what are your What are some of your ideas? Let’s Let’s hear them.
keevin bybee 29:36
the big plan is how do we keep kids safe? Like why why can’t the schools in some fashion be open? 24 seven. For example, if there’s a kid who wouldn’t have a safe place to sleep, could we have foster care on call like very locally resourced foster care on call in the neighborhood and So the kid just, if the kid has a question, they just show up to the school and the school can answer that housing, mental health, physical health, education, food, hygiene, and then thinking about how we can demonstrate that in a numbers based way. So like, what’s the formula that’s going to show how many school counselors we need? But say that for each of the different providers, you know, what’s an evidence based way to show that we need a student teacher ratio of like 15 to one for example, rather than 30 to one. So by showing how all of these components feed into each other in an evidence based way, then we will get people to go Okay, yeah, not only is this neat, but this is necessary, and it’s traction, but we can see how there are things that we can do that will all add up to make the whole thing better. So you know, I’d like to have a, like a nurse practitioner or a physician’s assistant that just that hangs out in the schools so that we can do shots and well child checks and developmental assessments. If a kid has a cough or a cold, we’d be able to appropriately watch them so that the parent doesn’t have to leave work to come get their kid. So I think there’s lots of ways that we can keep kids at the school longer safer, if we’re willing to kind of pony up for it when we recognize that we’re paying for it already. And it’s going to be significantly cheaper if we do it this way, rather than the way that we’re currently doing it. Does that resonate?
Taylor Jones 31:48
Yeah, absolutely. I’m all all in just let me know.
keevin bybee 31:53
Cool. Thank you so much for taking some Sunday morning time with me. If maybe we can do a round two with more questions come up, but and if you know anybody who would also be interested in chatting, please point them my way.
Taylor Jones 32:10
Well, thanks so much.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai