March 4, 2021 https://anchor.fm/oneschoolproject/episodes/3—Anthony-Kim-CEO-Education-Elements-ernh1i
Huge honor for me to speak with Anthony Kim, CEO and founder of Education Elements. We discuss his motivation for exploring a round-the-clock school and touch a bit on his background in organizational leadership in education. He likes to use a “checkin” to start meetings, but I forgot until near the end. We touch on his project for a Docu-series to explore the unheard voices that might benefit from a 24/7 school.
https://www.anthonx.us/articles/maximize-your-learning-skill-like-an-athlete
https://www.edelements.com/anthony-kim
http://www.zakstein.org/the-future-of-education-a-fast-moving-podcast/
keevin bybee 0:00
Hello, and welcome to the one school project. I’m Dr. keevin Bybee. And today I’m talking with Anthony Kim, who is CEO and founder of education elements. He’s also the author of a couple of neat books. I have read one of them the playbook for personalized learning and have listened to him on several other podcasts with his book about the new school rules. The first podcast I stumbled across him on was called better leaders better schools with Daniel Bauer. And through that, when I googled him, I saw that on his Twitter feed, he was interested in talking with people who are also interested in starting a 24 hour seven school, I’d like to turn the microphone over to Anthony, and let him introduce himself and tell him how he found the idea of a 24 seven school intriguing.
anthony 0:54
Yeah, hey, thanks. Thanks for having me. keevin. It’s been cool to get to know you and, and your ideas around 24 seven, school as well. And so I actually really value this time we’re having together. But yeah, you know, my, my background has been in education for the last two decades, and also just doing a lot of organizational design and human behavior, work in education. But I think a lot of this, two things really triggered my thinking around the 24 hour school. The first is a more recent thing, which is, I live in Las Vegas, and Las Vegas is the epitome of a 24 hour city, I could get a haircut at one in the morning, I could go get other services at three o’clock in the morning. And so when I was thinking about education in a place like Los Vegas, there’s a whole culture that is around three, eight hour shifts that exists that’s unlike any other part of the country. And so, and actually, with COVID, it’s come out even more obvious that there are students that actually work really early in the morning out in the fields or, you know, work really late at night, helping their families. And so some of the time constraints around the education system for them just don’t work out. And I it really struck home for me when I started in a I was I’m on the board of a micro school there, but part of it is because, you know, I grew up as an only child with a single mom. And she worked two jobs. And there were a lot of times where I really didn’t have a lot of opportunities for interaction and learning from adults outside of school. And I thought that it would, you know, as I reflect on this, I thought, would have been really cool if I had access to just really good learning opportunities, when I was interested in these things, and also had a, you know, adult support at night in in faith environments. And that’s why, you know, the 24 hour school made a ton of sense for me, as you know, I was kind of noodling on this idea.
keevin bybee 3:30
Well, you didn’t mention this, but I am aware of your background in architecture. And you mentioned the environment that we find ourselves in, and how that contributes to how we learn in behave. Having a school 24 seven is really important for the kids who are off hours or parents who are off hours, but in the meta level, that we grow up in a soup of the, you know, society in which we live. And again, thinking about taking care of our environment on both the micro and the macro scale is really important. What are your thoughts there? How do you think that would play into an institution like this?
anthony 4:08
Space, design matters a lot, obviously, you know, having been an architect, I care about that. And space actually sets the tone for how you work. I mean, it’s obvious when you we saw the shift in office space, from cubicles to open floor plans to you know, communal spaces, right? how you interact with humans is very different, defined by the space. And what I noticed in the micro school that I’m on the board of in Nevada is that they just use really open spaces and kids got to just walk or get up and walk around and talk to each other. You know, in a lot of other schools. If you got up in the middle of instruction, like you would not you would go to the principal’s office, right. But in these schools, you could just get up And walk around, go talk to another student. As long as you are getting your work, then that was all cool. And so that I think prepares our youth for the kind of work environment that many people are used to now, which is it’s not just like, sit there for 15 minutes at a time. And, you know, do what you’re told is just like, Hey, I’m going to go to keevin. He’s sitting over here, I know, he could help me with this, I’m going to go talk to him like that. That’s the way it should be.
keevin bybee 5:30
Yeah, so many points to touch on there. You know, with COVID and micro schools, you’re bringing up how we need to also reconsider that we don’t want just a building. But how does the community at large support education too. And it, I wish that we had had a system in place where we could have pushed these teachers out into local pods, or hired more people to do something similar to that. I’m not sure if you’ve ever heard of a guy named Zack Stein. He’s an educational theorist. And he talks a lot about how, you know, if culture is anything, it’s the intergenerational transfer of information? And if education is anything pretty much meets that definition, as well. So yeah, just like how you brought up the microscope portion? I’m just curious if you know, in any of your data, or anything you’ve come across, you can speak to how would we design a optimum student to teacher ratio, you know, with micro schools or even in like, your local school building?
anthony 6:42
Yeah, well, you know, I wanted to touch upon one thing you said, because I absolutely agree with this. Human nature, every since the beginning of time, I believe, has been about transferring knowledge, right? From the minute we created the fire to the wheel, everything is about developing knowledge upon the knowledge we had before, right. And that’s how evolution happens. If you believe that, then actually, you really want to create conditions where knowledge is transferred faster. And it’s building upon prior knowledge. And so I totally agree with that statement that, you know, culture, our culture is developed on building knowledge of the cute and transferring knowledge to other folks. And, you know, one of the things that I’ve been trying to express to, folks is that how we learn as individuals requires three components. One is, we need to have experts around this, experts increase the slope of learning, right, I can accelerate how much I learned in a shorter period of time, by having experts around. I also need peer networks, because the peer networks are really great when there’s a plateau. And they can empathize with the challenges that I’m going through, and we could share and, and I could shorten that plateau. And then the third piece is actually my knowledge deepens when I transfer knowledge to somebody else, the more often I transfer knowledge, the deeper my own knowledge gets. And so if you don’t have all three of those components, in a learning condition, and are learning up environment, then it’s you actually don’t optimize for learning, in my opinion. And so to take that and transition it to a school environment, and your question around ratios and things like that, we actually need to create conditions where all three of those things exist for the students that we support. Right, that perhaps the teacher is the expert, right? It’s definitely going to be quicker to have a teacher explain to students some of the key concepts, then then trying to figure out how to access all of that on something as broad and wide as the internet. But then they also need group interaction with their with themselves, because that allows them to contextualize that information with each other. And then third, they need to have opportunities to teach other students how to use these the knowledge that they’ve built. And if you don’t have that third component, which many schools don’t, then deep understanding, actually, it’s really hard to create. So to answer your question, this idea of like, What does ratio look like? This summer, we worked on a project with a group called cadence learning and their vision was to take the best teachers they could find, record them in kind of studio quality, with a handful of students showcase students around them, and they would record their lesson in a 20 minute chunk And also she’ll have a good student interaction. And then these videos were deployed all across the country, to other teachers that wanted to teach that lesson. But they watched that video, and then they learned how to do it. But they actually played that video for the students. So to play that video, they could play that video to any number of students, but then the small dialogue and interactions really happened with the teachers that were near closer to them. And then what I think they needed to do was create micro conditions where students could actually pick those lessons and teach other students. Right. And it would have been really cool if they had a recording of those students in the, in the showcase students and having them teach kind of another wave of students. And that’s, that’s how the evolution happens in in the world.
keevin bybee 10:55
Yeah, fantastic. You know, in medicine, we got the dies, see one do one, teach one. And I think that’s a little bit similar. And, you know, in my own when I went through medical school was when people were transitioning to recorded lectures. And my second year of medical school, I didn’t go to a single lecture, because I found that my time was better spent in a small group of four or five other students. And we would just kind of debate what was in the the lecture content, we’d run it at 1.5 speed, and then just kind of talk back and forth about it. And so, yeah, I resonate very highly with what you’re saying.
anthony 11:33
We’re, I mean, that situation, though, I think, you know, your medical school, you’re an accomplished learner by that point. And where did you develop the discipline, to actually, you know, actually watch the videos and prepare for this small group discussion, because I would think that that would happen in school
keevin bybee 11:55
100%. So you’re right, I was not a 10 year old at the time. And then they had thankfully, at the second half of our second year transition the curriculum to having more of the professor’s in those small groups to facilitate those conversations. But I mean, more of the primary education, I would absolutely see that you would have the peer based co education with teachers who could intermingle. I remember listening to one of your other podcasts, I forget which who it was, but one of the emergent properties you noticed was, there was a teacher who happened to be pretty good at the lecturing portion and another teacher who happened to be pretty good at the the individual student interaction portion. And so they combine their classrooms. Is that similar to what you were talking about?
anthony 12:46
Yeah, I mean, that’s a variation of what’s possible, right? Just like, you know, in your profession, as a physician, you could be a general protection practitioner, but, you know, if Steph Curry injures his wrist, he’s gonna go to a specialist that knows that really well. But you also have, you know, residents around you, you have researchers around you, yep, nurses around you, you know, there’s a whole support staff. And one might argue, well, you know, it’s hard to do that for I mean, it’s easier to do that for one person. But you’re obviously you’re not seeing one person that you’re seeing, what’s the volume of people you might see in a day.
keevin bybee 13:24
Right now we’re seeing my load is something like 20 to 24 patients a day, but you bring up another interesting point. And if you’ll permit me a small digression, but the payment model is still I’m paid by the widget, I’m not paid by the patient outcome. And the primary care inpatient home is a model that we’re trying to deploy. But largely insurances still pay for, how much I produce, and as opposed to how well my patients do. And so I think we really need to re envision team based care like team based education where I may not have to see patient after patient after patient but I can kind of look at what’s going on today triage it gives something to a physician extender, a visit physician’s assistant nurse practitioner, Rn, and then deal with some of the more population health or more complicated medical cases or obtuse diagnostics, so that we can leverage everyone to the highest of their ability. So does that kind of resonate with what you were saying?
anthony 14:31
Yeah, I mean, I think that makes, you know, total sense. I think that with any topic, right? Not every student, or not me, every person needs the same amount of time. But the way, you know, just like you might not see a patient for the same amount of time, depending on the complexity of the situation. And so I think learning is a complex is a wicked problem, right? Like, you know, it’s a wicked issue, and So when you think about something like that, you want to adjust the time based on how much that person needs. Because there could be interactions even you and I have over time where sometimes like, just me spending five minutes with you might trigger you to go off and do five hours of work. And sometimes you might need five hours for me just to get motivated to do the next one hour
keevin bybee 15:24
100% 100%. And so I was just curious part of my vision for a 24 seven school would be to have some sort of a residential component or a bed component for kids who happen to find themselves without a place to sleep for the night, or if they were fleeing an unsafe situation at home or wherever they happen to be prior to that with, with what you were thinking about, would there be a place to sleep for for kids or something like that,
anthony 15:59
I developed my bell schedule per se, which is on a 24 hour schedule, based off of family interaction time. So I was like, What are the kind of the times where families might be together in this type of environment. So let’s just take, you know, five to seven o’clock, right? That window of time is when, you know, maybe families could get together for dinner, maybe where a shift changes, maybe there’s some extra curricular activities that fall into that window of time. And so if i centered it around that which is around kind of the family community, then I built the school system, kind of as a ripple out of that. And so you might still have a eight to four regular school window. But also, there are some kids like I mentioned, they might, they might need to start later, because they actually are working in the morning, or there are other kids that are supporting the family at night and need to do some things kind of early, they might need to some STL support, right at the wee hours of the morning, just because they spent all night helping out cleaning an office building or doing work with their family business.
keevin bybee 17:21
And so you’re talking about family, that’s really important. When I was reading through the playbook for personalized learning. There was a table and it had a sheet I should have pulled it up. But there was a column. What were the there were three columns, and one of them was the column for families or parents. And you mentioned a little bit about the family life. How else are we missing in current education? The wrapping around our families to take care of our kids?
Yeah, you know, it’s, it’s tricky, because also families are very differentiated as well, a lot of times when we talk about families, we’re just like, the big family, right? Like, everybody’s kind of the same. And families are as individual as the person themselves, because they’re a dynamic of individuals and, you know, live together, basically. So it’s, I think, you know, we’re doing families a disservice when we’re talking about families as this monolithic thing. And I would say kind of the first step towards a 24 hour program is really understanding that there are different family needs. You know, the whole point of having something 2433 65 is to say that needs are very diverse. And there are probably families that are like, you know, they don’t want to be on the summer schedule, they may want to have students work start school a lot earlier, like I get up at 5am. Like I like getting up at 5am. And so maybe I want my kids to get up at 6:30am. Right, instead of at 8am. Or, you know, there’s a lot of different conditions. And so, we’ve, as a society, I think we’ve shifted from a condition where humans are asked to fall into the window of time services are available, like you can go to Kohl’s at you know, from 10am to 5pm. Monday through Friday. Now like that’s not like I’m not going to do that right. Even the even the DMV, I could order a new driver’s license now online and do it anytime a day when I’m ready to do it and process that there are some things that I can’t do without the face to face interaction. But there’s a lot of things I could do without that, you know, man, remember the days, it wasn’t too long ago when we couldn’t even get a boarding pass to go to the airport without a face to face gate check at the airport. Now we don’t even remember those things, right? You just use your phone. But there was a time where people got frozen from like, trying to print it out themselves, because they were like, no, I can only get a party pass at the gate.
Oh, man, I have such a terrible story. So my wife is from Italy. And we had a inter inter Atlantic relationship for a few years before we got married, and she moved to the States. And I had bought a ticket online, and didn’t know it was a print out ticket. And so I had to buy another ticket at the center, because they’re like, No, we see you here on the thing. But anyway, small digression. But anyway, I agree with what you’re saying.
anthony 20:59
Really what area is she from
keevin bybee 21:02
just outside of Florence
anthony 21:05
yeah. Beautiful part of the country.
keevin bybee 21:08
I feel very lucky to have married into getting to see Italy at least once a year under non COVID circumstances. Yeah.
anthony 21:17
Yeah. And that’s, that’s close to them off the coast right down there.
keevin bybee 21:22
Yeah, she’s about 40 minutes to an hour off the Amalfi coast. Yeah, that’s cool. Good stuff. derailed you. But yeah, I was just commenting on how we really need to rethink, like everything, does it need to be synchronous, asynchronous, and utilizing all of our technology to, we can do more with technology instead of adhering to the momentum of how things have always been done?
anthony 21:49
Don’t you ever get to a point, You know, I remember even when I was in grade school, but even now, there are times where, you know, I start picking up something. I’m like, Oh, this is interesting. I want to spend two hours on it. Right. And I just, I don’t want to lose that momentum. Because I know the minute I put it down, it could be another week before I pick it up again.
keevin bybee 22:14
Oh, you’re talking to Mr. Add here, that’s 100% how I operate.
anthony 22:20
I you know, I love it when people are like, you know, especially at work, they’re like, I’m going to put strategic thinking time on my calendar on Thursday at one o’clock. And like, do you really can you really like Turn yourself on at on Thursday, at one o’clock a week from now? They say you’re gonna be strategic at that time? They’re like, no, like, exactly. It’s hard for you to get into the mindset at a particular time based off a schedule. And so, but in schools, we train everybody to do that. And and so what I’m trying to figure out what the 24 hours school is, is there a way we could design learning in such a way that you could optimize for the condition you need, as opposed to the condition? The system says you need to follow exactly like,
keevin bybee 23:15
we’re all we’re all individuals. And I would like to think we could get to the point where we have almost an Individualized Education Program for everybody whether or not it’s like an IEP is it meets all of the current legal criteria, but hence your book the playlist for Sorry, I keep saying playlist, but playbook for. Man, I’m stumbling over myself. Could you say the name of your book, so I don’t put your personalized learning playbook.
anthony 23:41
Yeah.
keevin bybee 23:42
Speaking to issues of, you know, coordination and poor theories of each other’s mind. I like if you mentioned several times about having an environment where things are safe enough to try. And, you know, I think having again, a more open school would create more of a safe enough to try environment, right.
anthony 24:07
Yeah, and, and a lot of times, like, I think people that used that term, get it confused as people could go and do whatever, which is in that as well. really safe enough to try means that the typical paradigm has been whether you’re in your healthcare facility, or I’m in my office, or you’re at your school, if you have an idea for something. Typically, what happens is you come into a meeting and you’re like, I got this great idea that I’m really excited about. And here’s what it is. And then there’s 10 people at the table that are sitting there telling you why you can’t do it. And all of the things that they’ve tried it before they don’t have the resources, they don’t have the time. The kids won’t want it, the patients won’t want it. All of this stuff and so At the end of the hour, you’re just whittled away into either two things, right? The lowest common denominator of that idea to try to appease all these people, or you just been, that idea has been just so degraded, that you’re just like, that’s not my idea anymore. I just don’t want to do it. And so safe enough to try, actually just his idea that you flip the table. So keevin, if you came to a meeting that I was running that allowed for these kinds of conversations, you’d be like, I got this great idea. I’m going to try this x thing. And our job wouldn’t be to tell you why you can do it, our job will be to tell you why, why you should do it. Right? And if someone says, Well, that’s a bad idea, then it’s up to the person that says it’s a bad idea to provide the evidence that it is because what we found is that a lot of times when people say, Oh, that’s a bad idea, or we, if we tried it, they actually don’t have the data or the evidence that actually sets that as a, you know, as a position, right? If there’s no facts behind it, it’s all opinion. And so what we found is that the person actually often proposing ideas, have thought about it away more than the person saying that you can’t do it. And so we’re just trying to turn the tables on Yeah,
keevin bybee 26:27
and I’ve resonate so highly with that as well. When I’ve been pitching this idea to people, it’s just that it’s excuses, its momentum, it’s calcified. This is the way we do things. Instead of in principle, we can’t do this. And I remember when we first talked, and you were talking about how you’d pitch the idea of a 24 hour school to people, it’s like their mind blew like I had never considered it before. And I mean, just that, like, why is it that people have never considered this before?
anthony 26:59
I don’t know. I mean, I know you’re a big fan of Elon Musk. And if someone, if someone came to you with this business plan, that they’re going to build an electric car that’s faster than a Lamborghini with charging stations all over the globe. Right? With no maintenance. You would have been like, Are you kidding me? Right? Like, you know, I know, I would have been I just been like, good luck. You know, are you going to do it in 100 years? Or are you going to be able to do it in 20? And so you know, I think when you have a limited perspective, then you’re what you could achieve is limited. Well,
keevin bybee 27:44
let’s continue working on expanding minds. When we first talked, you also mentioned what you were thinking about doing with the 24? Seven? school? I don’t know if that’s something you want to talk about here your docu series. If not, I’ll just cut this segment. But is that something you wanted to share at all?
anthony 28:02
Yeah, no, that’s thanks for doing that. Because Yeah, I’m what I’m trying to do is, yeah, open people’s minds, right, and get them to think about what’s possible. And there’s been a lot of big, you know, movies out there around bad education, good education. Wait, the heroic teacher, you know, all of these movies have existed. But there’s never been one that said, schools could look totally different. Learning could look totally different. And so I’m, that’s what I’m trying to create not something around, here’s a bad school, or here’s a good school, or here’s a great teacher, or, here’s this incredible story of a one kid that made it to greatness. And what I want to be able to define and illustrate through a docu series is that it could actually look completely different from what we know. And what I want to do is a series of interviews from people that aren’t often heard and seen, you know, the, the family, the waitress that works at MGM at two in the morning, and what’s going on with her family, or, you know, in Vegas, there are restaurants that are open 24 hours, and there are people obviously working in those restaurants. And so what’s going on with the families there, because we have to uncover the hidden world that exists that supports this infrastructure that we have. And then from there, we need to figure out how to serve those families.
keevin bybee 29:41
I want to be real respectful of your time I took 30 minutes but I’m like I said I could pick your brain forever and and I’m having a blast. I wanted to do this at the beginning. But you had said that part of making a good organization is checking in so I wanted to see what color are you today
anthony 30:01
What color in light today? Well, that’s a good question. I, you know, I would say like mid day, I’m kind of a purple right like, and I say purple, it’s because there was some kind of rough things that I had to take care of, and some good things I had to take care of. And like when you blend that, it becomes purple. How about you? What color are you?
keevin bybee 30:28
I guess it’s a right now I’m a yellow that’s not garish. I’m feeling very enthusiastic, it’s beautiful. Outside, and I had a good conversation this morning with my wife about I definitely have some work to do and development as a parent, but she sees that I’m doing it. So that’s very encouraging.
anthony 30:50
Right? How many? How many kids do you guys have?
keevin bybee 30:53
we have an eight and a half and a six and a half year we were lucky enough to find ourselves a micro pod with some neighbors, and our eight year olds, first grade teacher assistant who since graduated, but given COVID wasn’t able to get a teaching job happened to be available. So we’re, we’re thriving in the, you know, one room schoolhouse kind of environment. And, again, part of this project is thinking about how not just a brick and mortar school or whatever material we build this place out of, but how do we push things like micro pods out to families who wouldn’t otherwise have them? So? Right, I definitely feel blessed to have that micro teacher on she’s not a micro teacher, she’s a teacher and a micro pod. But, you know, making not just a brick and mortar school, but a system of supports. I had an assistant principal on that I was talking with last week and his big one of his big structures for schools is a multi tiered system of supports to take care of people. I was just curious if that’s a buzzword that you’ve stumbled on, sir.
anthony 32:10
Yeah, it’s called MTSS, which is basically inner benching program, too. So now that you’ve been doing the pods for a little bit, you know, would your preference be for your kids to send them to school the way it was? Or would you like to have something that offered a combination of pods, you know, two days a week and three days a week? And at school? Like, would you be open to something like that?
keevin bybee 32:43
100% I mean, it’s all about the ecosystem and having variety, because I, you know, there’s something to having a few 100 kids in the same building at the same time, because you meet new people, there’s, you can do a big play, there’s just so many things that you can do in a big school. But it’s also nice to have a teacher ratio of less than one to 10 at a mixed age, so that your kids can be the big kid, they can be the little kid, and they can be a pier and boat, do all those things. You’re talking about having an expert, be a peer teacher and then teach somebody else, you know, in different ratios, depending on the day of the week. So I I would very much like to see a very blended ecosystem of learning environments hubbed at, you know, your local elementary school, for example.
anthony 33:38
And how do you how do you feel about mixed age classes,
keevin bybee 33:44
the fact that we put kids into single age classes is a little bit of a arbitrary relic from the industrial age when we needed to have industrial workers on the assembly line from bell to bell. And so we’re like, oh, that that seems like a good thing to do with our children. We know nothing about myelination. So we’re just going to do that for our kids, right? So I’m all about it. Like when I first heard of Khan Academy, for example, that may not be perfect, but again, trying to rethink how we do things where you’ve got the perfect lecture has already given the perfect lecture, and it’s already recorded. So we don’t need teachers to sit there and recite. You know, why do we call it a lecture because people used to read out loud because only one person could read and there was only one book. But now the perfect lecture has already been given Richard vitamins, lectures on physics are already out there. If we can have the kids do their lecture offline and then have a teacher walk them through the nuances and the concepts with the individualized instruction or you know, like small group instruction, then I think kids would anybody would learn better, right?
anthony 34:55
Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I remember when I was in I think it was, like, either high school or first couple years in college. I went to a lecture by Carl Sagan. And I mean, I would say most of this stuff I couldn’t understand. But there was, you know, whatever. 1000 people in, in the auditorium listening. Yeah, it was in college, because at Cornell, he was teaching there. And, and but, you know, where I getting that information was valuable, but then it was the TA is that, like, pulled us apart and group does and worked with us and to help us like actually understand. And then it was the study groups that allowed me to process that, that really made those concepts stick. And so it’s, I think there’s an opportunity for kind of lower grade levels to look something like that.
keevin bybee 35:59
Yeah, yeah. And so again, keeping kids in arbitrary age groups isn’t terribly helpful. And one way we think about it is I must have been a YouTube white one of those whiteboard thanks for somebody who’s drawn real fast while somebody is talking. And they say that the way we teach, like if we use bicycle riding as an analogy, we’re learning to use a bicycle, a bicycle and then a unicycle. We give somebody a C and bicycle and then say, Okay, now you’re on a unicycle, instead of giving them the time and resources they needed to master the bicycle and then ask, did they want to go to a unicycle? Right, right. And that’s not going to happen on some arbitrary like June to June timeframe.
anthony 36:41
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Well,
keevin bybee 36:45
we’re at eight minutes over how much time I promised I would steal from you. Is there anything else that you’d like to plug anything that I forgot to ask anything else you’d love to share?
anthony 36:57
No, I mean, you know, I think that anybody that is listening to this, right now is the best opportunity for us to rethink what schooling might look like. Companies are rethinking what offices are going to look like. airlines are thinking about what travel is going to look like restaurants are rethinking what you know, dining is going to look like. So right now, we should be rethinking this. And it’s it’s exciting to be in a time where we can do these things. At a systems wide level, so anyone listening, I encourage you not to go back to what you might have thought would be comfortable because it might actually not be comfortable when the whole world around you has evolved and changed.
keevin bybee 37:52
Sure, words rarely spoken. Well, thank you again, Anthony. This has been wonderful for me, I learned a ton. I’ve really enjoyed listening to you on your other conversations and reading your material. You’re also an athlete, and I take that pretty seriously. I really liked your thinking of learning under perceived effort was a neat article. So for other people who are listening, check that out on his website. And hopefully we’ll get a chance to talk again sometime soon.
anthony 38:26
All right. Thank you so much, keevin for having me.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai